Yes to the Mess Part 1: What Jazz Teaches Us About Learning, Failure, and Finding Your Voice
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Jazz pianist and organizational scholar Frank Barrett on play, shame, and finding your voice.
This episode is for anyone who has ever felt held back by a voice telling them they are doing it wrong.
Frank Barrett, jazz pianist, organizational scholar, and author of Yes to the Mess, traces the roots of improvisation back to where it really begins: childhood, play, shame, and the difference between learning that is alive and learning that is rule-bound. If you love music, suspect that fear of mistakes is quietly limiting you, or want to understand what jazz can genuinely teach leaders about navigating uncertainty, this conversation is for you.
Frank's story starts at his grandfather's piano in a small Irish-American home in Cleveland, where ragtime and laughter shaped a different relationship with mistakes than any formal lesson ever could. He traces how that early experience of playful, joyful learning was replaced by shame when structured piano lessons began, and how that shame became the main enemy of improvisation throughout his life and career. The contrast between mistakes that generate laughter and mistakes that generate silence is one of the most practical insights in this episode.
The conversation moves through Frank's accidental journey into jazz: teaching himself by ear, playing with the late great jazz clarinetist Ken Popowski, surviving a very public humiliation in the wrong key with the Tommy Dorsey Band at the Sands Hotel in Las Vegas, and receiving the bluntest possible feedback to find his own voice. These are not polished success stories. They are exactly the kind of messes that turn into wisdom.
Frank also traces how his lived experience as a musician collided with the organizational thinking of Karl Weick, whose concept of sense-making and compressed expertise runs through this episode. He describes the 1996-97 Academy of Management symposium on jazz that sparked his research career, his early connection to David Cooperrider and the birth of appreciative inquiry at the Cleveland Clinic, and his relationship with Deborah Ancona's work on leadership and the family ghosts we carry into our professional lives. The episode closes on the phrase that anchors Frank's entire framework: yes to the mess is an appreciative move.
Part two (next week) covers leadership, unlearning, minimal structure, maximal autonomy, and AI.
This episode is for anyone who has ever felt held back by a voice telling them they are doing it wrong.
Frank Barrett, jazz pianist, organizational scholar, and author of Yes to the Mess, traces the roots of improvisation back to where it really begins: childhood, play, shame, and the difference between learning that is alive and learning that is rule-bound. If you love music, suspect that fear of mistakes is quietly limiting you, or want to understand what jazz can genuinely teach leaders about navigating uncertainty, this conversation is for you.
Frank's story starts at his grandfather's piano in a small Irish-American home in Cleveland, where ragtime and laughter shaped a different relationship with mistakes than any formal lesson ever could. He traces how that early experience of playful, joyful learning was replaced by shame when structured piano lessons began, and how that shame became the main enemy of improvisation throughout his life and career. The contrast between mistakes that generate laughter and mistakes that generate silence is one of the most practical insights in this episode.
The conversation moves through Frank's accidental journey into jazz: teaching himself by ear, playing with the late great jazz clarinetist Ken Popowski, surviving a very public humiliation in the wrong key with the Tommy Dorsey Band at the Sands Hotel in Las Vegas, and receiving the bluntest possible feedback to find his own voice. These are not polished success stories. They are exactly the kind of messes that turn into wisdom.
Frank also traces how his lived experience as a musician collided with the organizational thinking of Karl Weick, whose concept of sense-making and compressed expertise runs through this episode. He describes the 1996-97 Academy of Management symposium on jazz that sparked his research career, his early connection to David Cooperrider and the birth of appreciative inquiry at the Cleveland Clinic, and his relationship with Deborah Ancona's work on leadership and the family ghosts we carry into our professional lives. The episode closes on the phrase that anchors Frank's entire framework: yes to the mess is an appreciative move.
Part two (next week) covers leadership, unlearning, minimal structure, maximal autonomy, and AI.
Chapters
- 00:00 Introduction to Frank Barrett
- 01:09 Where It All Began: Grandfather at the Piano
- 04:28 Rich in Family, Poor in Things
- 05:21 Play, Mistakes, and the Roots of Improvisation
- 06:30 Shame vs. Laughter: Two Ways to Learn
- 08:39 Rock Band, Eric Carmen, and a Geology Exam
- 09:12 Piano Lessons with Condoleezza Rice
- 10:12 The Main Enemy of Improvisation: Shame
- 11:19 Family Ghosts and Karl Weick's Sense-Making
- 12:33 Self-Teaching Jazz in Cleveland
- 13:37 Ken Popowski: Finding Your Own Voice
- 15:18 The Tommy Dorsey Band and a Very Public Mistake
- 18:26 How Karl Weick Changed Everything
- 20:03 The 1996 Jazz Symposium and the Birth of a Research Career
- 22:48 Appreciative Inquiry and David Cooperrider
- 23:42 Preview of Part Two
