00:11:
My name is Judy Dlamini,
00:13:
it's an honour to be your host
00:16:
on Why She Leads podcast
00:18:
by Standard Banks CIB.
00:21:
In this series, Standard Bank CIB shines a light on powerhouse dealmakers,
00:28:
who happen to be women,
00:31:
and with me, I have Marilyn Maki,
00:35:
who's the Head of Energy and Infrastructure Finance.
00:40:
Welcome, Marilyn Maki.
00:42:
Thank you, Judy.
00:44:
Coming from the Eastern Cape, is this what they expected
00:48:
you to be, the powerhouse that you are today?
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One has to say no, because the time that we come from
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the era that we are born of simply did not expect that a woman,
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a black woman from the Eastern Cape, had this as a trajectory.
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So I grew up in a world which was extremely matriarchal.
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My mother and her sisters, were the powerhouse of our family,
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and as such, girls were also empowered in our family.
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So when it was discovered that, in fact, I was quite bright and intelligent,
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that was not something that was, sort of honed into
01:28:
“Well, she'll make a great wife and at least she has her looks”.
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My parents were very clear
01:33:
that education was was absolutely essential to underpin
01:36:
what my, you know, my trajectory was looking like at the time.
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So I've always been someone who's been encouraged in my family to do better.
01:43:
Well, that's great.
01:45:
Why Financial Services?
01:47:
Completely by accident.
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So I actually was
01:53:
very much of an arts and creative type of student.
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In fact, it was believed that I was going to go on to be
02:00:
an actress in Hollywood, was the idea.
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But my mother, again, very clear on the fact
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that for the amount of money that she had paid,
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I was either going to be an astronaut or veterinarian, one of the two.
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And so I ended up actually pursuing law
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as my undergraduate and graduate training.
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And then I had no idea
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that in banking, actually, there was anything called Investment Banking.
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Banking was always the teller, the lady who helped you to get your money.
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And so you didn't know that there was a career in this.
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And so when Standard Bank found me some 26 years ago, by the way,
02:35:
for the graduate programme.
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And they were telling me
02:37:
all these amazing things that you could do even though you had a legal background.
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I was amazed and totally folded into the space,
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and therefore, here we are.
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Yeah, it's a beautiful story.
02:48:
Tell us about your journey at the Bank, Standard Bank.
02:51:
So I am a child of Standard bank.
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I arrived here, as I said, on a graduate programme and have never left since.
02:59:
Standard Bank has been my university,
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has been my adventure in life,
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and I have managed to do so much in this organisation that
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one would think I'd had four jobs in four different organisations.
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I've seen the entire African continent, something one never dreamt they would.
03:14:
I've seen the entire African continent, something one never dreamt they would.
03:19:
Growing up, I have lived in the United Kingdom,
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all under the auspices of my career growth in the organisation.
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And it's been such a privilege to work in a space
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where you are actually allowed to explore
03:33:
many of the things that you wouldn't get to do,
03:36:
I think, if you moved into a new organisation.
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So being a child of of the Big Blue, I think for me has stood me
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in really good stead and a fantastic journey of different kinds of jobs.
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I have done strategic work in the CEO's office for a period.
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I have, as I say, been in London doing oil and gas.
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I have spent time on the continent currently, which is what I do
03:58:
looking after various business units across on a Pan-African basis.
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So my journey here has been a full one,
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one that I wouldn't, I wouldn't change for anything.
04:09:
Yeah. You mentioned you went to the UK.
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What brought you back to South Africa?
04:15:
You could have stayed in the UK.
04:19:
I cannot express my love
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for this country, in enough words, I think.
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So yes, do I miss London?
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I do. I miss the efficiency, I love
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that trains will run until whatever time you need.
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I love that I can come home from work at nine,
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remember I don't have milk, and walk
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downstairs somewhere in a safe environment to pick up
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some milk or a bottle of wine.
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But you can't take away what we have here.
04:45:
You can't take away what we have as the weather.
04:47:
You can’t take away
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You can't take away what we have to fight for actually,
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and so, honestly
04:56:
when it comes time to vote
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I know why I vote because we have so much to fight for.
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So it was not a conversation or a question about returning home.
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Now challenges along the way.
05:07:
Surely there were challenges?
05:09:
Challenges along the way I think are a number of things, I think.
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But the one I would kind of go back to is, is success at an early age.
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I think women have to, or young young women
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or young professionals have to know how to manage that.
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I think when it comes at you so fast, sometimes you are actually distracted
05:31:
by the success of it all, that the excellence of it may be lost.
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So for me, that was a big thing, was to say, gosh,
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and the reason I say this, I was an executive at Standard Bank
05:40:
at the age of 29, which was extremely early,
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and I think it was a lot to come to bear, you know, to understand
05:47:
who you were in this process and what that means.
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And so, yes, that I think is a challenge, own your greatness
05:54:
as soon as you can, because then it will take your trajectory a lot further.
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And then I think also trying to juggle the world of
06:03:
the career versus what you are you are becoming as a woman.
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You know, there's so much being thrown at you all at once.
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It's your career. It's your choice of partners.
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It's to moving into a new home, having children.
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It's a lot,
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especially if you are a little bit of a perfectionist
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because you're trying to do it all so well.
06:20:
Yeah. And you actually,
06:23:
are you the type of person that doesn't go and ask for help when you need it
06:27:
because you have to do it all? All myself? Yes,
06:30:
listen, I've learned,
06:31:
I think, to be a lot kinder to myself, a lot better at asking for help.
06:37:
I tend to be the shoulders for everybody else.
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And so that's been my kind of, I think, burden on myself
06:43:
when I actually discover that you can ask other people
06:45:
for help and absolutely available, people are wanting to help you.
06:48:
How do you unwind then?
06:52:
Love to spend time with family.
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So very close with my family.
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As I said, we're a gaggle of girls predominantly, very matriarchal, my sister, my aunts,
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and then, also time with friends, very close friends.
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I have a small
07:08:
group of friends based all over the world, but, you know, lots of time spent,
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whether it's on the phone, video conferencing and so on.
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And then I love to be active.
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I swim every day and I am now a new golfer,
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in my old age, and also play tennis once a week with a group of friends.
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So different groups but lots of activity, yes.
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But that's also healthy for your mind, for your body, your soul.
07:36:
Huge.
07:36:
Yeah. Yeah.
07:38:
I have to take you back.
07:40:
If you were to tell a 12 year old,
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they'll ask you, at 29 you were an executive.
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Tell me the three things that put you there.
07:51:
So I think it has to do with people identifying you.
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So being seen is a very important thing.
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And I'll tell you why I say that, is because it actually is for me
08:03:
what underpins, I guess, the human journey.
08:07:
We're all here to be seen and to have people bear witness to our lives.
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And when people see you, then somehow they find you, they curate you,
08:16:
they will they will kind of have this interest in you that says,
08:19:
how do we get more out of this individual?
08:21:
And I think that was one of the things that I think I had.
08:24:
I was very bubbly
08:27:
and I was extremely... It can’t be in the past tense.
08:31:
You are bubbly. yes, I remain so.
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In fact, I think my family used to, behind my back call me,
08:37:
I had a nickname called Vivacious.
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And so that kind of really helped me, I think, I’m very gregarious.
08:44:
So I love meeting people and I think that was an important piece
08:47:
because you will be seen if you're engaging the world.
08:50:
Mmm.
08:51:
And then I think the second one would have been
08:55:
finding the ability to get out of your own way,
08:58:
you know, so again, if you think about our history,
09:01:
if I was a child growing up in the eighties,
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you being told that you're black, you're being told that you're a woman,
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you being told that you're black, you're being told that you're a woman,
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but you actually are saying, that will not be in my way.
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And so the you that is being identified, you have to get it out of your own way.
09:10:
And so the you that is being identified, you have to get it out of your own way.
09:15:
Yeah.
09:16:
And see yourself as equal to everyone else.
09:18:
Correct.
09:25:
What would your son say
09:27:
about you as a mum?
09:28:
Oooh!
09:32:
We get along as friends now that he is much older,
09:36:
he's 26, and the one thing he does know
09:39:
is that, one, he is supported no matter what is happening.
09:44:
And that's the comfort that I think children should really be able
09:47:
to hold on to for as long as they can, because the world is quite tough,
09:51:
but also knows that there's a full stop, right.
09:55:
So he knows when I'm using his full name and I'm saying, Khanyi Maki, he knows
09:59:
but now it's actually no longer about anything he can get away with
10:03:
I'm onto him.
10:03:
So... but I think he you know, recently I celebrated
10:07:
as I was telling you, that I am old, my 50th birthday.
10:10:
Oh wow, that's amazing.
10:11:
You carry it well,
10:14:
Thank you
10:15:
And he spoke at my birthday and he, you know, beautiful descriptions,
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and to have I guess, other people speak of you and hear
10:22:
what you've kind of achieved and been able to be in.
10:25:
And he used the words to describe me, which was the Rock of Gibraltar.
10:29:
Oh wow, yes, that's beautiful.
10:32:
What is it that people don't know about you?
10:38:
People don't know about me,
10:40:
that in fact, I am an introvert.
10:43:
What?
10:44:
Yes.
10:46:
I'm an introvert. And let me describe it,
10:48:
I mean, not necessarily going into the psychological description
10:51:
of introverted, but I really actually comfortably gain energy from myself.
10:57:
And I love people.
10:58:
I'm gregarious and as I say, but I am one of these individuals
11:02:
who can spend weeks by myself and go away on a holiday by myself
11:07:
to read, to kind of re-energise and then bring bubbly Marilyn back for the year.
11:12:
Yeah.
11:13:
So a lot of people always say, and in fact, funny enough, that's exactly what my son
11:16:
and I were engaging about while we were on holiday recently
11:19:
and he was saying, “But Mum,
11:20:
you seem like
11:20:
you're always ready to engage with people”, I said it takes a lot of work, actually.
11:24:
Yeah. And I breathed into it actually.
11:27:
It's not something that just, kind of, I do, as a natural piece, but it does surprise
11:32:
a lot of people that I actually I see myself as an introvert.
11:34:
Well, I got surprised myself.
11:37:
What are you most proud of?
11:39:
So I get asked this question actually quite often,
11:43:
and I think people then correlate that with an achievement
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and what have you achieved that you can retrospectively look at?
11:48:
And and I tend to try to look at it a little bit differently in that I think
11:53:
my greatest achievement is myself in ten years time.
11:56:
And then in ten years my greatest achievement will be myself
12:00:
in a further ten years time.
12:01:
So you just chase yourself, you know, because otherwise,
12:05:
if you always looking back, you then tend to be tempted to mark that moment
12:11:
and then allow yourself to relax because, well, could I ever better that?
12:15:
I really did so well. That was amazing.
12:17:
I think for me it's about chasing yourself.
12:19:
I love that.
12:21:
I love that because you are where you are now,
12:23:
but what more,
12:25:
what more can you achieve and where do you see yourself in ten years?
12:28:
what more can you achieve and where do you see yourself in ten years?
12:29:
Well, I referred to it
12:33:
colloquially as my afterlife,
12:34:
so when I'm no longer at Standard Bank,
12:37:
as you know, I'm born and bred, grew up here, came in on a graduate programme, as I say,
12:41:
and then my whole trajectory and career has been here.
12:44:
So I know that what I am leaning towards as I do
12:48:
some of the things that are passionate for me in the bank, like mentorship
12:53:
for young women and upcoming professionals, that I'm absolutely certain
12:57:
that I will be seeking to look at the education of the girl child.
13:01:
We have a message from one of your mentees.
13:03:
Ahh!
13:05:
Hi Marilyn.
13:07:
I hope you're well and enjoying the special time.
13:10:
It is Moyahabo speaking.
13:13:
When I joined the bank two years ago, I was just very overwhelmed
13:19:
by the sheer size of the organisation
13:22:
and I felt like I could just very easily get lost in the crowd.
13:26:
Your decision to mentor me just gave me the sense of belonging that
13:29:
I needed, and the boldness and courage to just just show up as myself.
13:34:
So I just want to take this time to just thank you for all of
13:37:
the time that you invested in me
13:40:
and to
13:40:
just let you know how much I appreciate your invaluable contribution in my life.
13:45:
Thank you for pouring in to me as as much as you have have.
13:50:
It is really much, much appreciated.
13:52:
Thank you.
13:54:
Well, that's beautiful. Sweet, thank you.
14:00:
Who was that for you?
14:01:
When we began going to private schools in the eighties, when it was just the transition,
14:07:
when people of colour were being permitted into integrated schools.
14:12:
And the first school I went to, which was a primary school,
14:14:
at the end of the first quarter,
14:16:
my mother came for what was the parent teacher discussion,
14:20:
and it was a convent school and a nun called Sister Agnes,
14:24:
she was German and I remember her very well,
14:27:
and she said to my mother, your daughter's doing extremely well.
14:29:
She's very bright, nothing to worry about.
14:32:
One observation, though, is that in the playground, she's a bully.
14:37:
Oh!
14:39:
So my mother was horrified.
14:40:
So great,
14:41:
now we've got this issue and a problem.
14:44:
And then, sister said, “No, but that's not an issue at all”.
14:49:
So then my mother said, “How on earth can that not be an issue?”
14:52:
She said because we're going to harness that into leadership.
14:54:
Wow.
14:55:
And that's literally kind of how
14:57:
I think a lot of what I kind of became was
15:00:
and I wish schools understood that, that bullies are just leaders in hiding.
15:05:
And how do we try and make this epidemic or pandemic of bullying
15:09:
in schools actually become something that can actually be quite positive?
15:13:
Exactly.
15:14:
So that was her and I think I remember her so starkly.
15:16:
She was focused on me to say, you know, you're going to become
15:20:
what we think you can become.
15:21:
And that's kind of, I look back on that with fondness.
15:25:
And then another was my... the deputy headmistress at St Mary's,
15:30:
a lady called Jean Ratcliffe,
15:33:
and we called her the rat,
15:35:
and she was a very strict woman who spoke in a monotone.
15:38:
If you know the lady in The Devil Wears Prada,
15:42:
something quite similar where, you know, whether you were running in the passage
15:46:
or whether you actually had
15:47:
done something that warranted detention, her monotone was the same.
15:51:
“This is not the conduct becoming of the ladies we're trying to cultivate”.
15:54:
I can hear her as we speak.
15:56:
And I had the privilege of going back to St Marys
15:59:
actually on our 30th anniversary last year as a keynote speaker,
16:03:
and she was there and she arrived and she said,
16:06:
I hear you've been saying things about me calling me the rat.
16:09:
I said, Yes.
16:10:
And and it was beautiful
16:11:
because I remember her so well as being such a part of my life.
16:15:
And when she then said to me at that luncheon, you know,
16:19:
you were my greatest achievement.
16:21:
Yeah, there it is.
16:22:
Yeah, it doesn’t get better than that, wow.
16:25:
It’s a lesson for parents and teachers,
16:28:
and 50 by the way is the new 30.
16:31:
It feels that way for me,
16:32:
so far embracing it.
16:36:
I run a really
16:37:
special mentorship programme called HIM,
16:41:
which stands for the High Impact Mentorship
16:44:
within our energy and infrastructure cohort.
16:46:
And we pick high potential women who we think have got trajectory
16:51:
to become executives and be leaders in our business.
16:54:
And we have currently got five women on the programme,
16:58:
which I mentor personally and very passionate about it.
17:02:
I'm a big believer in the fact that we have to send the elevator down,
17:06:
something that hasn't been done in the past
17:08:
and that women have just got to learn to own.
17:10:
And I often speak of this idea that when women get to the top,
17:16:
it feels as if the men kind of bring them in, and then they
17:19:
whisper to them to say, “You know, there's not many of us here.
17:22:
and you ‘re very privileged to be here so don’t tell the others”.
17:26:
How do we change that?
17:27:
Because we should be absolutely get to the top,
17:29:
and then that elevator has got to go down and pick somebody else up.
17:32:
And and so mentorship has always been about that
17:35:
because I was definitely fortunate enough to have been picked up.
17:39:
So why would we not pay that forward?
17:42:
So how did it start?
17:43:
Literally, because I live in a world where my boss and I get along very well.
17:47:
I wanted to do it.
17:48:
I told them I wanted to do it and he said, do it.
17:50:
And so it's been running for some years and successfully, so,
17:55:
we have such a good time with the ladies.
17:58:
I always talk about our signature moment
18:02:
when we managed to get us into a dinner with Oprah Winfrey.
18:05:
Oh wow, thats amazing.
18:06:
In the flesh for the evening and it was fantastic.
18:09:
This year, we will actually host the deputy governor here at the bank
18:14:
for an evening with insights from her, on monetary policy and so on.
18:20:
So we're doing meaningful things.
18:21:
You know, it's not mentorship in the ordinary course.
18:24:
It's really, really meaningful stuff that I think changes the
18:28:
the young women's perspective on what they should expect of themselves.
18:32:
And is there a winning phase, are they your mentors the whole time?
18:36:
Do you bring others in?
18:38:
We do bring others in, so actually it's come to the point where
18:42:
now my... the human resources team have said to me, look,
18:46:
there's only one of you and this thing is working so well.
18:49:
How do we try to create something that actually becomes a platform?
18:53:
So 100%, because we want to take on at least 15 to 20 women at a time.
18:58:
And so how do we then make that bigger?
19:00:
And that's actually what's so
19:02:
successful about it, is the fact that it's
19:04:
actually attracted enough attention that I'm receiving
19:07:
the offer of assistance from our various stakeholders in the building.
19:11:
That's amazing. Well, well done.
19:14:
It's been a true honour to have this chat with you.
19:18:
I'm inspired and I can't wait to see what the next
19:21:
ten years brings with your leadership, the powerhouse that you are.
19:26:
Thank you Marilyn.
19:27:
And I thank you so much for your time and spending getting to meet you.
19:31:
I've known of you for so long,
19:32:
so to meet you in the flesh is a privilege. Thank you.
19:35:
Thank you. Thank you so much.
