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Hello and welcome
00:11:
to Standard Bank CIB Why She Leads podcast,
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and I'm so pleased to be having a
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series of conversations with some of the most
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inspiring women dealmakers.
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We're going to be finding out
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what it takes to get into the investment banking space,
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the obstacles these women have had to overcome, and
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whether or not they find that elusive balance
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between their personal and professional lives.
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These women are changing the face of banking
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and inspiring generations that come after them.
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Joining me today is the Executive Head of Public Sector and Infrastructure.
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A wife, a mom, a powerhouse,
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Zen Dlamini, thank you so much for your time today.
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Thank you.
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What would you say to your 18-year old self now?
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The 18 year Zen,
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I'd say to Zen, you've got it.
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You have all it takes
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to take on anything and everything that you dream of.
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The sky's the limit.
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Just go out there, grab it.
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Believe in yourself.
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Never, ever doubt yourself and focus on everything
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that you put your mind... set your mind on.
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So if we're looking at where you are now and the position that you occupy,
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can you just give me some insight into how you got there, especially
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for someone who's watching, who thinks this is a difficult space to break into?
01:38:
I wouldn't say obstacles.
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I don't call obstacles, obstacles.
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I call them tests.
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You know, you have to think about things in a positive way.
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So banking, banking is quite broad.
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It's split into various segments.
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You've got your retail banking, you've got business banking,
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and then you've got CIB, which is the most desirable for everyone.
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I know that a lot of people have tried to get into Corporate Investment Banking,
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but it's just been an uphill battle.
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However, back to my statement,
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you know, if you want something so bad
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and you put your mind on it and you focus, you will get it.
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There are other various considerations
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that you need to take into account.
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You first need to understand the space you want to get into,
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and you need to connect with the people that are in that space
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to make sure that this is exactly what you are looking for.
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So you can't just say, I want to be in Corporate and Investment Banking.
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You need to understand what CIB stands for.
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You need to understand the value proposition because CIB is big as well.
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It’s got various segments within itself and you need to know
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where you need to land because you could be in a product area,
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you could be in risk, you could be in the support areas
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or you could be frontline where I am and do the most,
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you know, like you bring the bacon home, you changing things,
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you’re changing the face, and you bring in everyone together.
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So it's really about knowing what you want
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and understanding what you're going for and connecting with the relevant people
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and making sure that you find the right sponsors for yourself as well.
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Who's done that for you?
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That said to you, you're a diamond,
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you can do this, let's go.
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A lot of people have done that, Alan has done that
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for me.
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Bill Blackie, who's the CEO at BCB,
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has done that for me.
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Kenny has done that.
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I'm thinking just outside of our space,
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like various other women have done that
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for me,
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and my husband, and my husband tells me,
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you know, and I actually think I don't believe in myself anymore.
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He says, yoh! My gold, never.
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You know, you are the best thing ever the world has ever seen, you know.
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So when I go to bed, I could have, like,
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a lousy, lousy day, you know, like when I get home,
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I know that I actually do have this sounding board.
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I have someone that will say to me, you,
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you are the best.
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When I wake up in the morning.
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Hello. You are the best. Remember that.
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You know, and I walk tall because of the support, you know, and I'm grateful,
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and I always talk about gratitude for me,
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I have gratitude, you know, and I always talk about waves of abundance,
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you know, like I use affirmations, you know,
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like one of my affirmations this year was like waves of abundance.
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And in another month it was like a gratitude
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because I remember to count my blessings.
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So, yes, I've had a number of people actually remind me
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that this is your worth, you know, like you're doing great.
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You spoke about having people who know more than you,
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having people who can guide you.
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What's the importance of a mentor, especially if you're navigating the space
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that seems quite overwhelming or challenging to get into and thrive?
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Yeah, you've
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got mentors and you've got sponsors,
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so some find you, some you find.
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To have a mentor
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means that you've got a sounding board,
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means that you have like a professor, for lack of a better word,
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outside of varsity or teacher at school.
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To have a mentor means that you have someone that will tell you
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when things are not going so well and you believe that,
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I've reached the end of the road,
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and then they remind you that, remember, you have a personal positioning
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and you have to stick to your personal positioning.
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When changes come, they should not derail you.
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You know, you need to take them, accept them with an open mind
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and with an open heart and a clear mind,
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trusting that every step that you take
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is actually your true path,
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and your purpose.
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So they remind you of that.
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So there'll be changes.
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You go into a corporate space,
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you are employed by this boss, and the boss leaves or they get promoted
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and then a new boss comes in and they are not exactly what you signed up for,
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but you didn't sign up for it because you signed up for the role,
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you signed up for the franchise and you cannot be derailed
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because this is something that you need to move on to the next level.
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And when you sit with your mentor,
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these are some of the things that they help you with to say,
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stick it out.
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You know, maybe you could help, you know, because the new boss is coming to your
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space as well.
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What are the things that you're going to do to help them, you know?
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And give them that comfort and then so that they understand that we are a team
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because they need to feel like they are part of their team as well.
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The mentor will help you with that, you know,
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because they've got the expertise, they've got the experience,
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and then they understand you.
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And when you're feeling down and out, you can pick up the phone like
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at 12 o’clock at night, I’ll phone my mentor and say, “Hey, It's not happening, Baba!”
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And he says, “Yes, it is happening.”
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Reach within you Zen, inside.
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and you've got the answers because they're not giving you all the answers,
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they’re just guiding you. They're helping you,
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and then when you off-ramp, they'll take you back to the freeway.
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You've spoken about Alan Mukoki
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and the role that he's played in guiding you in your career,
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so I’d like to play you something from him.
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Hi, there’s a lot to say about Zen
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first and foremost, Zen you’ve a special character.
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without any doubt, works very hard
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gets things done,
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aggressive, but in a nice, polite, respectful
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kind way, full of humour all the time.
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Takes care of people, laughs a lot in terms of
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creating a very positive environment when it comes to working with people.
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So I ran into Zen and I think that we worked together
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various stages of our careers throughout the years,
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and I think at some stage we were all together at Nedbank.
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and I think that she was the relationship
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person manager reporting to a regional guy
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who used to report to a senior guy who used to report to me,
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and I'm making that statement, because one Saturday evening
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after 10 p.m., I'm receiving this call from Zen. Alan, Alan what's going on?
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Zen why are you calling me so late at night, she didn't care about jumping
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all these people that she used to report to.
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She came straight to me to say, Hey, I understand that my application
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went through and you're the one that we are waiting for, who’s signature we’re waiting for.
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And I really, really need to get a decision.
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I said, Zen do you see what time it is now?
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It's after 10 p.m. on a Saturday.
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What kind of client is this
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Who’s calling you after 10 p.m.?
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She says Alan you’re not going to understand.
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I really, really, really need to get an answer.
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And she was really doing it with a lot of respect and kindness
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and obviously apologised for calling me on a Saturday evening.
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Be that as it may, obviously, I checked my information
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and I actually signed off on the transaction,
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and I think that from then on I knew that Zen was always going to do well.
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She was always going to push for customer service, but she would do it
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with a level of diligence due to her skill and care
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and do it in a way in which she didn't necessarily, you know,
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create conflict or a bad environment in terms of the world of work.
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You know, I think that she has huge doses of emotional
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intelligence takes care of people and cares a lot about people,
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while she's very pushy, but she's able to push in a way
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that is a soft power type thing and take care of the business.
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and I knew Zen was always going to do well.
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And throughout that period when we were all together at Nedbank,
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she was always showing up amongst all the top performers,
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you know, the people who get the awards and the reward would be to go overseas.
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and Zen was always there, and I knew that Zen was always going to do well.
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So wishing Zen the best of luck.
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and whatever she touches, I know that she will do exceptionally well.
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Thank you.
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Oh, Alan.
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He knows me.
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Ha, ha, ha!
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You want that deal, you get the deal,
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and I'm sure Sim can attest to that.
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I'm sure the board
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can attest to that, you know,
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because it's for me, it's
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it's always about
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making that impact.
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I look after public sector
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and public sector is
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the most exciting
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and scary portfolio for obvious reasons.
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I mean, you think about
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the Zondo Commission, the Mpati Commission,
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everything that has happened in the public sector space,
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you think about SAA, we were the main bankers for SAA, by the way,
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and when I took over the role of
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Executive and I was assigned this portfolio,
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how I moved into that space Nzinga, let me just say
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I had said that I'm bored from product,
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you know, I wanted something quite exciting
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quite different, because I always referred to myself as an octopus.
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I've got eight limbs,
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and I want each limb to work,
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and when three, four, five, are not working,
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I feel very paralyzed and I cannot be paralyzed,
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of course, this is Zen, I have to be out there.
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And I said, I'm looking for something quite different,
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and I think I'll do it in client coverage
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because you can be an octopus.
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And then when you reflect back and then you look at some of the things
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that you've done, some of the things that looked very impossible
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and you've delivered on,
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you realise that it's not so much of an effort it’s the ability
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to put people together and to change, to change the narrative.
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When you speaking about changing the narrative,
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when you walk into rooms now, boardrooms, people listen to you
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because you occupy a powerful position, you have a powerful disposition.
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It wasn't always like that, though, I imagine in your career,
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how did you make sure in your early days
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that your voice was heard even when people didn't want to hear it?
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So I liked your first question,
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when you asked me about what would I say to an 18 year old Zen?
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It's really about
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being authentic and having conviction,
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but you have to understand what you're talking about,
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you know, you have to appraise yourself of the environment that you are in,
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if you're operating in specific industries,
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you need to understand your industries.
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And I'm going to digress a little bit,
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you know,
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you know, men have a tendency
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of knowing what to say to exclude women,
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and, you know, you could be sitting in a setting
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could be an event, like an intimate event,
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and then they think, hah, okay, let's have a man conversation,
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then they start talking about soccer,
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you start talking to them
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about their story and what they thought yah, we will protect our space.
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And then you walk in there and then you talk about it in such a way
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that they’re thinking, is she a woman is she really a woman?
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Yes, of course! and then I've got my blonde hair,
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you don't need to ask those questions,
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but you need to be able to switch across,
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you know, you need to be able to hold conversations
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like proper conversations, you know. So conversations are not just about
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your hair,
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or about the style, what you wear, conversations are real, Nzinga,
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you know, like, what is the world going through?
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you know, you need to understand what is the value that you
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bring in.
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So for me, I’ve been lucky enough
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you know to spend time with boys and to understand
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what is it that matters, you know,
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to boys.
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And then we look at the girls and I’m like, mmm! she’s not caring enough,
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or, mmm!
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I think she's smart, oh, she's tall, okay,
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she's too short, you know, and they start thinking, okay, fine,
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she's a part of us, you know, and they look at me like that.
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But in business, you really need to understand your subjects.
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You know, like the disciplines that you deal with,
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so that when you walk in
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and there is a debate about the discipline,
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you dominate and you lead.
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And you have conviction.
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You know, like you have to have conviction because you've done your research,
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you've covered everything, and then you can talk to that, you know, in detail.
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So when you start doing that,
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it's not
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necessarily a tag, but they’ll know... you know, most of my male colleagues
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would say,
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she knows her s..t.
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But what they actually mean is, she has that value to add.
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You know, they will call me.
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What are your thoughts on this?
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You know, not necessarily just in government.
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So you make a difference, you know, by bringing in the value and being authentic
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and having conviction, so authentic, your conviction
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and, you know, your discipline and you can go into any boardroom
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because you're going to discuss what you understand very well.
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You can talk about the value chain, you can talk about options, alternatives
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and you are open to any other idea.
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It's not just about what you bring on board,
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but when someone brings in something that is different,
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you actually leverage that and you bring it in.
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That's how you actually open up the space.
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And I've had to build that, you know, over time,
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leveraging the likes of your your Alan,
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leveraging various other ladies.
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I've learned over time that actually it's about knowing what you're talking about
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because it gives you that title of she's,
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she's an expert.
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There's a story,
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Yeah.
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About when you were starting your career,
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you in a boardroom,
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Ha, ha, ha!
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you don’t have to say where
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people aren’t listening to you.
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Yes,
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ha,ha,ha...
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What do you do?
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So I was...
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I was thirty two,
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I had just been given the Regional head role, which is quite big.
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and I said in the provincial
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and advisory board in one of the
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big corporates I worked for, and in that board
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I was, I was the youngest
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and I was the only black female,
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but there was another black female who was a professor at a varsity,
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and so there was just two of us in a boardroom,
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and I've got my board pack,
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and then I go through my board pack and I would need to talk to my contribution,
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but came into the boardroom, the board meeting and
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they got into a section that I needed to contribute to, but
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Chair was never going to see my hand.
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Then I put my hand up, Chair was not seeing my hand
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and I thought, I need to share this.
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It's very important, and
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towards the end I actually stood up and apologised for standing up and I said,
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I'm not sure if I'm too short for Chair, not to see me
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or maybe I should be on the table so the Chair could see me.
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But I really, really have a burning issue that I need to put on the table.
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It changed everything, you know, like, I remember
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like I'd get into the board meeting Chair would ask,
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“Zen, what are your thoughts on this?”
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Ha, ha, ha! “What are your thoughts on this?”
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So I gave myself a voice
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because it felt like you are in the space, but you don't have a voice.
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And now you're doing that
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for women who are coming after you.
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You are making sure that they have a voice, they are heard,
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and they don't have to threaten the Chair,
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Ha, ha, ha!
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and stand on a table.
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Yah, so sometimes when you look at people's personalities, they...
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some women, some young women that I mentored,
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have got strong personalities and I've picked on them,
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you know, specifically because they have so much to offer.
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So we can miss out because of a strong personality
19:22:
that a lot of people would want to walk away from.
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So I'm able to come in, I’m able to rein in
19:30:
and just guide the process.
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But also, my biggest thing is the impact,
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you know, like I always say,
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like Julius Nyerere, you know, when he was asked, how do you
19:44:
see proper leadership?
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like, how can you actually say that you’ve been a great leader, what is it?
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What are the things that make you see that you've been a great leader?
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And his response was
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‘The leadership that comes after you,
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does better than what you've done, and the one that comes
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after the leadership that you were responsible for,
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they just excel’.
20:06:
So for me, it's our time, but,
20:10:
the people that we give, that we hand the baton over to
20:13:
must do exceptionally better than what we've done, you know,
20:17:
like Mama Charlotte Maxeke, Lillian Ngoyi, they've paved the way,
20:22:
they've done all the great things, and for us
20:25:
but you have to be contemporary, relevant, and move with the times
20:29:
and acknowledge your male counterparts
20:31:
because they can’t be confused about what is happening.
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They must be part and parcel of this.
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So that's exactly what I love doing.
20:38:
Well, one of your mentees Nompilo Mtshali,
20:42:
has a message for you, and I'd like to play that as well.
20:45:
Zen you have
20:46:
encouraged me to be an authentic leader.
20:50:
One of my favourite characteristics about you is how authentic you are.
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I can bump into you on a Monday morning for a coffee catch up,
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or see you walking with the most senior person in the bank
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or a graduate that just joined the bank yesterday.
21:09:
You are authentic.
21:10:
You are yourself through and through.
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I remember when we first started our mentor, mentee relationship,
21:18:
you always encouraged me to show up as Nompilo
21:21:
the best version of myself.
21:24:
You encourage all those around you
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to show up as the best versions of themselves.
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Furthermore, you are a leader that leads with kindness,
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yet you possess so much strength.
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I can pinpoint a number of instances
21:42:
where you've coached me, coached me with so much kindness,
21:46:
coached me with so much grace.
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We need leaders in the workplace
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that act with kindness that are human first.
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So I want to thank you for inspiring me to be an authentic leader.
22:02:
That is kind, but a leader that possesses so much strength.
22:07:
Oh, wow!
22:08:
Beautiful. It's lovely hey.
22:11:
One of the most amazing,
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humble
22:18:
and kind individuals
22:22:
that I've come across
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the utmost respect.
22:27:
You know, she has a Ph.D.
22:28:
You know, she has a Ph.D.
22:30:
She used to be a lecturer at Wits Business School
22:34:
and she moved from that space to join banking.
22:37:
And she just became like,
22:41:
someone like that is quite junior,
22:43:
she thought that
22:45:
maybe I need to start
22:47:
if she could maybe be a teller, for that matter, that’s
22:50:
how she is thinking
22:52:
because she is humble like that, you know, like we had our engagement,
22:57:
we had our sessions I picked up that, oh, wow, this is a diamond.
23:02:
Like proper diamond.
23:05:
It's not even a rough diamond for that matter.
23:07:
You know, it's just a diamond that's lying there,
23:09:
just need to polish it.
23:11:
I always say
23:12:
a girl has to have various tribes, you know, like as
23:16:
as a girl
23:16:
as a woman, you need to have at least a minimum of three tribes.
23:21:
The first tribe is the people that you grew up with.
23:26:
It could be the people you went to school with.
23:29:
And the second tribe, it's
23:31:
it's the people you work with,
23:33:
you know, like the ladies that you can connect with.
23:36:
Tribe means that you've got people that you can connect with quite well.
23:40:
So from school you've got a lot of people, but you can only connect
23:44:
with specific people that understand you, that support you.
23:48:
And a tribe means these are the people that support you.
23:51:
These are the people that will tell you that,
23:54:
Oh, it's not going so right for you.
23:56:
And the same applies when you get to a work or a corporate space.
24:01:
You need to have that tribe as well.
24:03:
And then the third, this is the minimum, by the way.
24:06:
And then the third is the leadership.
24:08:
You know, the woman leaders, you know, the people that you can look up to,
24:12:
the people that you can leverage,
24:14:
the people that will tell you the honest truth
24:17:
without actually blinking, you know, because you are learning from them.
24:22:
So I believe that, I've been...
24:25:
I've sustained myself through having tribes.
24:28:
I have five tribes.
24:29:
Okay, what are the other two?
24:31:
There are two fun tribes,
24:34:
and obviously, the fun tribes,
24:38:
it means that you actually have to let go of everything and,
24:42:
be you and enjoy yourself.
24:44:
And the other tribe is
24:47:
the one that guides you like in terms of academics,
24:50:
like you sit, you talk about the world, you talk about the geopolitics,
24:55:
you talk about where countries are going,
24:58:
you talk about the future, you talk about
25:00:
everything that makes sense.
25:02:
That is a serious tribe,
25:04:
and for me, you have that serious tribe,
25:06:
and that's why I part the two.
25:08:
You've got that serious tribe, then you've got that fun tribe.
25:10:
When I sit with my serious tribe,
25:12:
I have to make sure that I connect with my fun tribe,
25:15:
just to stabilise things, because it is serious.
25:18:
You know what we're going through, globally,
25:20:
there's a lot that's going on.
25:21:
But you need to remember so that you can play.
25:25:
You’ve spoken about the support that your husband
25:29:
has given you, not just in your career now,
25:33:
from when you were a young mom
25:36:
trying to figure out what was happening.
25:39:
Just take me through that.
25:40:
And then when you're doing these high pressure, massive deals,
25:44:
the importance of that support.
25:46:
Yeah, a family, very strong on family, he believes that
25:51:
everyone should have a family
25:53:
and his whole is family,
25:56:
his kids, myself.
25:58:
And yes, we have the extras, but me
26:01:
and the kids are his world,
26:04:
and supported me as I was studying
26:08:
because I was doing it as a mother and as a wife.
26:12:
I would come back,
26:13:
I remember studying analytical techniques, you know, like you call it statistics,
26:17:
and it was like shaking me.
26:20:
So I'd sit with him and this is...
26:23:
Okay, fine, explain to me where your challenged,
26:25:
and I'll take him through like a specific area, like maybe
26:29:
distribution or calculus, and then he'll sit me down and actually
26:34:
take me through, like, specific pointers to look out for.
26:38:
And when I was writing exams, he'd come and,
26:40:
like the biggest cheerleader for me, biggest, biggest cheerleader.
26:44:
So he's been there,
26:45:
when I'm working on a deal, I get home, I'll be like, tense,
26:50:
you know, I'm sitting there, he says, “Don’t talk to Nene”,
26:52:
they call me Nene,
26:53:
“Don’t talk to Nene”,
26:55:
“It's hectic like let's give her some space”.
26:58:
He will give me space.
26:59:
And like, when I'm losing it, I'll ask him.
27:01:
“So what do you think?
27:03:
Should I argue this?”
27:05:
“Argue you what you need to argue,
27:06:
If there's no need to argue, trust the process it will happen”, so,
27:10:
he has actually given me support like in that space,
27:14:
even with family, you know, like my siblings.
27:16:
He said, “No, you're a baby,
27:19:
Yeah, you're the baby”,
27:20:
allow the sister to be the sister,
27:22:
so I'll be the baby.
27:23:
And yeah, amazing, amazing.
27:26:
Zen Dlamini,
27:26:
thank you so much for your time on Why She Leads.
27:29:
It's been such an incredible privilege learning from the lessons
27:34:
that you have learned as you progressed in your journey
27:36:
as you've climbed the corporate ladder.
27:38:
Thank you so much for being so generous with your time
27:40:
and the lessons that you’ve learned. Really, really appreciate it.
27:43:
Thank you Nzinga, and thank you, gorgeous African woman.
27:47:
It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.
27:49:
And yeah, just reflecting on all these things.
27:52:
Sometimes you forget the little things that make a difference.
27:56:
So, yeah, thanks for reminding me.
27:58:
I feel like I got a crash course in mentoring,
28:01:
from the incredible journey that you've had and the lessons,
28:03:
I’m so, so grateful. Really.
28:05:
Thanks Nzinga, I think you're amazing.
28:08:
I think you’re great,
28:09:
Thank you.
28:09:
Keep shining.
28:10:
Thank you,
